Talk:Argentina
"Argentina was one of two successful colonies Spain maintained in the New World." Not so. Spain's colonies were named New Spain and Peru. At least in OTL; I haven't bothered with this story, but I don't see why the Spaniards would be likely to change the name. Turtle Fan 06:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC) It's not the same in this story. They don't have the Aztec and Inca empires to build on. So they manage to get many colonies set up, but only Argentina and New Granada prove to be long lived. TR 16:25, 18 March 2007 (UTC) :Is there any evidence that this Argentina is "our" Argentina, i.e. something located in the same place at all? The lack of native languages from where to borrow words like Cuba, Mexico, Guatemala, Peru, Chile... might very well end with the Spanish calling any of them Argentina instead, which plain means "land of silver".WastedTime 16:46, May 18, 2011 (UTC) ::Unfortunately, no. We should probably put a note in to that effect. I just couldn't see a reason to create an independent article for a tossed off reference. TR 16:56, May 18, 2011 (UTC) Idiot vandals Thank you for fixing things, elefuntboy.TR 06:51, 9 September 2007 (UTC) : My pleasure, TR, Elefuntboy 05:00, 10 September 2007 (UTC) Argentina in In the Presence of Mine Enemies Adam: First, I have found your speculative articles both entertaining and thoughtful, rounding out and enriching the Turtlewiki. However, I am having difficulties believing that Jews lived openly in this timeline. In the novel we have half a dozen POV character, all hidden Jews in Nazi Berlin. I don't recall any of them mentioning this and would have expected this to occur if it were so. Maybe I forgot something, since I read the book several years ago, or you have other reasons for thinking this is so. What are your views on this? ML4E 04:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC) : I certainly gave this some thought before putting it in. Historically, there is ample precedent for Nazi allies and satellites taking their own policy towards Jews, as long as there was no direct German occupation. The Bulgarian regime saved the Jews who were Bulgarian citizens and refused to hand them over, but collaborated with the murder of Macdeonian Jews in areas occupied by the Bulgarian Army (which is why Bulgarian Jews in Israel revere the memory of the WWII King of Bulgaria but Macedonian Jews hate his guts); the Romanian regime killed many Jews on its own, very cruelly, but there was no all-out hunt and most Bucharest Jews survived; until mid-1944, Hungarian Jews were subjected to forced labor but not to extermination (they were only exterminated when the Germans instituted direct occupation in middle 1944). Finland treated its own Jewish citizens as equals (there were actually Jewish soldiers in the Finnish Army fighting on the German side against the Soviet Union) but handed over Jewish refugees from other countries who arrived in its territory. I assume that in the world described by Tutrledove, no European satellites or ally could get away with such things, but South American ones might. In the situation which I depicted, where the Argentinian regime does not go all the way to a Final Solution and the Nazis find it necessary to compromise on their ideology,they have no reason to advertise this to the general German public and every reason not to. The fact of Jews living in Argentina would just not get published in the tightly-controlled German media, and hidden Jews like other Germans would just not hear of it. From time to time, when the Argentinian regime would find it convenient to stage a pogrom in Buenos Aires, the German media would certainly report that and the hidden German Jews would hear of it (like Gimpel in the book hears of Jews being discovered and killed in Serbia), but they would assume that the victims were hidden Jews like themselves who were unmasked. The fact that the victims had lived more or less unmolested until the attack, and that those who survived the mob attack would continue to live more or less unmolested until the next pogrom a few years later, would just be omitted from the German media accounts. By the way, I think that there would be in this world quite a few Jews living unmolested under Japanese rule. In our actual history, tens of thousands of European Jews fleeing the Nazis got refuge in Japan itself and in Japanese-occupied areas of China, and suffered no greater hardship than some difficulty in getting Kosher food. (Among them were the parents of Israel's current Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, who spent almost the whole of WWII under Japnese rule at Harbin, China. What the Japanese did not do while fighting a war as Germany's ally against common enemies, they would be unlikely to do after they and the Germans defeated everybody else and became economic rivals. There would likely be Jews living in Japan itself, China, Australia and New Zealand, and few in other locations (there was a Jewish community in Penang, Malaya). But again, neither the Japanese nor the Germans would have nay interest in publicizing this, and hidden Jews in Berlin would know nothing of it. (Unless Germany wanted to go to war with Japan, when the presence of Jews in Japanese territory might suddenly be trumpeted as a pretext - but there is no such situation in this book). In Eric Norden's "The Ultimate Solution" of 1975 (which I am quite sure influenced Turtledove's book, though I have no direct evidence) there is a reference to the Japanese first allowing the Nazis to carry out a total extermination of Jews in their territory and later going to an all-out nuclear war with Germany - which seems to me very far-fetched; and there is no hint of Tutrledove making a similar assumption. Adam Keller 05:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC) :Well maybe but I am sceptical that the German authorities would be able to keep it hushed up for half a century. This policy would be so outrageous to properly indoctrinated citizens of the Greater German Reich that some who knew about it would gossip in outrage. Since Argentina would be in Germany's sphere of influence, citizens of the GGR would travel there at least for business. Too many would know and some would talk. :Also, the policy to tolerate it would not have been reached immediately and so the state controlled media would likely be broadcasting it widely at first. This might be covered up over time with propaganda to the contrary but I don't think it would overcome the rumour mill. ML4E 05:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC) OTL Axis Actually they were neutral leaning toward Allied throughout the war, until they declared war on Germany about twenty minutes before VE Day. They knew which side of their bread was buttered and knew that the US would jump them if they tried to join the Axis, and that no Axis member would be able to do a thing for them. Turtle Fan 21:37, June 24, 2010 (UTC) Khomeini "The Race banished Ruhollah Khomeini to Argentina. The different Tosevite religions were very confusing for them, coming from a world which had had only one religion - Emperor-worship - for tens of thousands of years. Still, practical experience did give the Race the idea that Khomeini would have much less influence on the Catholic Argentinians than he did in Arabic environments - and so indeed it proved." No, HT doesn't state where Khomeini was imprisoned specifically. In DtE, on pg. 294, Atvar states that Khomeini will be transferred to a prison "in the southern region of the lesser continental mass." The lesser continental mass was what the Lizards called the totality of the New World. The southern region would be South America in general, not just Argentina. TR (talk) 23:17, April 17, 2014 (UTC) Winter in June I believe Redentor10's point is that Argentina is in the southern hemisphere so winter begins in June. The article states the Race did well because of the hot climate. S/he may be trying to highlight an inconsistency although I don't know just how cool Argentina gets during the winter. ML4E (talk) 21:40, January 7, 2016 (UTC) :My understanding is that southern Argentina is pretty chilly. The north much less so, and of course the country has a long north-south axis. Even when cold, it's fairly dry, so the Race might have an easier time dealing with it. Turtle Fan (talk) 23:27, January 7, 2016 (UTC) ::I removed the tight timeline for conquest. I can't find anything saying it took three months, and Fotsev in SC suggests that the conquest of Argentina was rather hard. I also removed the references to the weather. TR (talk) 23:34, January 7, 2016 (UTC) :::I wonder what was the toughest conquest that they actually won. I would guess China, but that might just seem so because we had a few POVs there. Turtle Fan (talk) 01:06, January 8, 2016 (UTC) Curious Notions I don't think Argentina was referenced in CN, just Patagonia. For all we know, Patagonia has been broken off and made into a separate country or German colony in the CN world. If there's no reference to Argentina in the book, then the CN section should go.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 07:04, April 16, 2016 (UTC) :I haven't read the book but there is a footnote to "pg 225" justifying the entry. What does it say there? ML4E (talk) 16:13, April 16, 2016 (UTC) ::I'm pretty sure it just mentions Patagonia, not Argentina. All I remember is that various prison colonies around the world are mentioned, something like "Patagonia, Siberia, New Guinea, and the Mojave Desert" with no elaboration. Maybe someone here has easy confirmation access.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 16:17, April 16, 2016 (UTC) :::It just references Patagonia. Since Patagonia is shared by Chile and Argentina, it's probably appropriate to remove the CN section from Argentina (and Chile, if necessary). TR (talk) 18:00, April 16, 2016 (UTC) ::::That's what I thought. Since we don't know how the Kaiserreich redrew the South American map, we have no idea what country Patagonia is part of in CN.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 18:04, April 16, 2016 (UTC)